NEW NMCA NSS Rules

[Old Hippie]

Mopars running the wrong block? How so? What Mopar runs an engine not available? The Low Deck came out in 1960, the RB before that. The Hemi came out in 64. I know of no Mopar running the incorrect motor/head configuration for the year car they run.

The Rat motor didn't come out until 1965 1/2

I understand the Tempest deal now. There was a (very slow) 61 that was running all year, and someone only pointed out at the end of the year that it was a 61. I guess they changed the rules to allow it -- and frankly I can't tell the difference between a 61 and a 62. I thought it was 63 when the Tempest first started racing in NSS -- but if they all look alike, who cares?

It was a nice looking car -- but he was slow and had a hard time getting down the track. I hope he gets the car to be more dependable and a second or so faster -- as I always liked the 63 Tempests of Arnie the Farmer.

[texoutsider]

Tranny, what blocks are wrong in the Mopars? I am curious to know.

Rat motors in the early Chevys?.........wrong on all points

Single carbs on the AMC ...wrong again

decals somewhere is ok

M.

AHRA here we go I hope............

if I wasn't nearly on my frickin death bed up here with this PLAGUE...I would call california and see what is going on...

[Old Hippie]

OK -- I talked to Doug Duell at length this morning.

NMCA has now announced that they made a mistake on the Rat Motor -- and will change. However, before they made that post -- I get a PM that said I'm a complainer over this.

I would have normally blown this off -- but instead of telling me there was a mistake -- I'm told that I'm a complainer and some remark is made about the Hemi in the car I just bought. Below is the message and my reply.

I personally don't have a problem with the single 4bbl on the AMX -- but there is some history on the whole AMX thing that started before me that has caused a lot anger with many of the older drivers. The story goes (as told to me -- as it was before me) that before the AMX was allowed, that there was was driver who was terminally ill, who wanted to race his AMX. A lot of racers wanted to give him a break -- and there were also many that felt like the AMX bastardized the class. (Again -- this was before I switched to NSS). In the end -- it was agreed that the AMX would race -- but with the Group 16 4X2 intake and carbs. That pacified some -- but not others who remain pissed about this to date. The reason so many people complained (if not to you -- among other NSS racers in the pits) was that the AMX was a thorn in their side, and then the rules were not being enforced -- and the car wins the points. Again, you will note that you never heard a word from me about the AMX. The point on the AMX is that between the political way that car was allowed in years ago, and the fact that he was allowed to run outside of the rules and win -- has caused some of the drivers to be pissed at NMCA.

On the Pontiac -- that too doesn't piss me off. While frankly the 63 was the first year that Pontiac put a 421 in a Tempest and delivered a car without "rope-drive" for drag racing -- I can't tell the difference between a 61, a 62, or a 63 (although I'm sure there is some differences). The reason that the rules for years stated 62 as the starting year -- is that 62 was the first year that a Tempest could be had with a 326 V8, a 326 and 421 is the same block family, and "Cubic Inch Displacement is not a tech item". In 61 -- the Tempest came with a 4 cyl only. I know that there was a slow 61 that raced all year before it came to the attention that the car was a 61 (again -- I never complained) -- and I can appreciate trying to accommodate him. Again, this doesn't piss me off because they all look the same to me -- but a purist might feel differently. And every one of these exceptions made by people who don't appear to understand NSS -- opens up a new can of worms. For instance, the 68 and 68 Darts and Barracudas were allowed because of the Hemis cars Mopar made. That evolved into including Wedge motors for those cars -- which pissed of the purists. So now that a 4cyl Pontiac can run with a V8 that wasn't available -- why can't the 63 and 67 Darts and 64-67 Barracudas now run in NMCA with a big block never offered? Hell -- they at least had a V8 (albeit a small block). You will no doubt see those people with those cars argue that if you can do that for the 61 Tempest -- you can do that for the 63 to 67 Darts and 64 to 67 Barracudas. Frankly, I think all of the 61 to 63 Pontiacs ought to be called 63s, and make whatever small cosmetic changes needed to look like a 63.

Now on the Stickers. I thought that enough people argued the situation that NSS cars have run those stickers on the bodies all of their lives. Additionally -- since it isn't head ups -- you need to see out of your back and side window. All NSS drivers, without exception, want this -- as it is the same rule as every other place we race. I understand how most of the other classes have the clean street car look -- but they're not street cars, NSS has never had a street car look, and it wasn't a big deal to have accommodated NSS -- had y'all wanted to. What's the message you're sending NSS. You say "I don't understand why you complain all the time" -- but here you have a chance to give NSS something that costs you nothing, and you won't.

The Chevy thing is a big deal to a lot of people -- including me. A rat motor was never available in a 59 to 64 Chevy? It wasn't available until mid-year 1965. The rat motor is the cheapest motor to make power with. Just like we see nothing but Novas, Camaros, and Mustangs in virtually every other class -- NSS will evolve into mostly early 60 Chevys -- because they will be the cheapest fast NSS cars to build. This will not represent history (but rewrite it) -- of the ratio of makes you saw in the early 60s, when Mopar had it's hey day -- and Mopars will get squeezed out with budget build Chevys.

Ford will now argue that if W-Motor Chevys can have Rat Motors -- then Thunderbolts should be able to replace FE motors with 460s. They will use the same argument you give about 427 blocks are getting impossible and expense to buy/build, and it is cheaper to use the millions of Lincoln and truck 460 motors laying around. I know Mark Artis could make more races if he could build a cheaper motor using a 460 engine.

Where does it stop? Politics leads to the AMX. Then politics again leads changing the promise that allowed the car in the first place. While the "agreement" was made before me -- it was made to many drivers still running NSS.

W-Motor cars can run Rats, cars that didn't have 8 CYL can now run them -- opens a can of worms to let more and more people ask for what use to be big bendings of the rules -- to have a little bending of a rule.

If you consulted a NSS driver about this Rat Motor deal -- it either was a Chevy guy or someone who doesn't understand the can of worms of allowing motor configurations that didn't exist. I thought that there was going to be a universal set of rules -- instead of NMCA and everyone else.

I guess I'm suppose to shut up when NMCA's lack of understanding of NSS bastardizes the class. A lot of racers at Memphis tried to talk me to run a couple of new series that were to include NSS. I told them that I was committed to have Dallas and I to run at least one more year of NMCA. Additionally, it looks like AHRA will be running NSS this year -- and I was planning to additionally run the TX/OK/LA/OH races with them. I'll give a lot of thought over the next couple of weeks on if that might be too many events to run -- especially if I'm just a complainer for voicing my opinion. It is funny that NMCA does crams down any change to NSS that they want -- yet calls me a complainer if I open my mouth.

I like you Jeff, but call me a complainer on the types of things that you don't appear to see affect the tradition of the class pisses me off. I'm starting to get the NMCA message pretty loud and clear. NMCA has pretty much given NSS the ole "Its our way -- or the highway" on any discussion. Sure I complained loudly last night on the forum -- but these last minute rule changes with repercussions have are purely for the benefit of NMCA -- and at the decrement of NSS drivers. Yet I'm suppose to shut up.

Finally -- I don't understand what it is that your accusation is on the Hemi car I just bought? Is your accusation that the motor is illegal?

I'm sorry that you feel like I'm just a cry baby. Maybe the best solution is for me to not run the NMCA races, as I don't need to be fighting the having the tech guy pissed at me.

Jeff -- I know you visit the forum -- and I've like you since you pulled me aside and told me that I was bringing a good car to the events -- and you appreciated it. And I'm sorry that you appear to have problems with me -- but this is a two street. While NMCA might get 90% to the drivers to shut up (maybe because they've given up?) -- I live and breathe NSS and I won't shut up when I feel like y'all are wrong. Y'all (many of the NMCA people) don't have any problem telling me how you feel -- I feel I'm entitle to the same priviledge.

I sure hope that my vocalizing my strong objects is will not turn into a handicap. I do what I do because I love NSS and what is good for NSS is good for me. I will always be pro-active towards working towards a better deal for NSS.

I'm glad that y'all quickly saw the "mistake" -- but to call me a complainer and justify the change on one hand -- and announce it as a mistake on the other hand wasn't fair to me.

I sure hope to see improvement in the relations between NMCA and NSS, and that you will see that because too many don't have the guts to voice their complaints -- and just move on -- doesn't mean that there are complaints. However, if NMCA's position is going to be that NSS just has a bunch of Grumpy old men (as I was once told) or that those giving their opinion are complainers -- I think you will find NSS seeking an organization who will listen to comments & suggestions before they become complaints.

I understand that it's NMCA's sole mission to increase revenue through car counts -- but their methods conflict with what many feel to be NSS's mission, and reality might ultimately be fewer car counts.

[TrannyMan]

I didnt think that 400 low deck block was available in a 67 Coronet. I could be wrong. According to ALLPAR that 400 block that a lot of Mopar guys use didnt come out till 1972 and according to ALLPAR nothing on that motor was interchangeable with any other B motor.
If it's not interchangable but "looks" the same, Doesn't a 460 look like a 428?


Now Chevy made a Big Block 409 In 1964 and Came out with a New Big Block in 65 in which no parts would interchange with the old big block. Sounds about the same but just looks different.

Again MY Opinions dont mean chit, I am just going off of what I read.

[TrannyMan]

But I also don't think a 454 in a 59 Cheby is right. It's wrong in my opinion. Just looks wrong...

[GTSDave]

Doug,

Unless you measure the bore on a low deck or check the casting numbers, you cannot tell the difference between a 400 and any 383 out there. Period.

The heads, bearings, crankshaft, timing chain, intakes, exhaust, bell housings, starters, ignition all interchange.

The 400 is the same exact motor as a 383 with a larger bore.

I am not positive when the 383 B engine was introduced, but it was a long standing staple of the Mopar fleet. For the smog motor updates, they cast it with large bores killed the compression and called it a 400.

I know you could get 383's in A-Body Darts and Barracudas from the factory starting with the larger body style in 67. They were available in B and C Bodies long before that. Someone more familiar with the B (low deck) engine in early B-Bodies would have to answer exactly how early they started putting the 383 in the B's.

-Dave

[nssracer]

Man Ill be glad when this snow is gone so we can just go racing again!

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by TrannyMan

I don't get the Pontiac engine change. Looks like they added year 1961 to the Tempest body line. Was 62-67 now 61-67.

No motor change for the Pontiacs, for whatever reason the 1961 Tempest was left out of eligible vehicles. The 1961 and 1962 are almost identical, the 1961 was the first Tempest that ever received a big motor. (Raced FX Class) BTW, it wasn't until 1963 that you could get the 326ci in the Tempest, 421 Super Duty for drag racing both using transaxles. From the outside of all the blocks, the 326ci, 389ci, 421ci and 455ci all have the same block dimensions.

Anyone that has questions regarding the Pontiac's, let me know, I have old pictures and stories of these cars.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[TrannyMan]

Originally Posted by GTSDave

Doug,

Unless you measure the bore on a low deck or check the casting numbers, you cannot tell the difference between a 400 and any 383 out there. Period.

The heads, bearings, crankshaft, timing chain, intakes, exhaust, bell housings, starters, ignition all interchange.

The 400 is the same exact motor as a 383 with a larger bore.

I am not positive when the 383 B engine was introduced, but it was a long standing staple of the Mopar fleet. For the smog motor updates, they cast it with large bores killed the compression and called it a 400.

I know you could get 383's in A-Body Darts and Barracudas from the factory starting with the larger body style in 67. They were available in B and C Bodies long before that. Someone more familiar with the B (low deck) engine in early B-Bodies would have to answer exactly how early they started putting the 383 in the B's.

-Dave

according to AllPar the B383 was first used in a car in 1962. They say that nothing is interchangeable with an RB 383. I am just reading what they write. I don't think (not that I know) that you could get BOTH versions of the same block in (lets say) 1966,

So as I am reading this.... what engine was available in 1959-1961? Surely not the RB engine....

[fugly]

The 350/361 version of the B engine came out in 1958 (Sonoramic Engines) and the RB as a 413 was available in 1960-a good example is the one running in NMC. The low deck 400 is derived from the 350/361 roots as was the 383- RB had a 383 (60-61 I think), 413 , 426, 440. All parts interchange with the exception of the pistons obviously and the distributors. The intakes are different B to RB. (of course pistons, rod length, crank main journals differ)....basic answer is yes the B is legal from 1958, RB from 1960